Full Interview: Amanda Wallander Roberts

Tuesday June 16, 2020 comments Tags: Infrastructure, Systems, Accounting, Nonprofit, Capacity Building

Any accounting, business or tax advice in this here podcast is not intended as a thorough in depth analysis of your specific issues. It's not a substitute for a formal opinion. It is not good enough to avoid tax related penalties. Got to tell you this because don't want y'all coming for me. Back to the episode.  Hey, it's Chyla Graham. Welcome to season three of the Nonprofit Nuggets Podcast. This season is going to be about infrastructure and systems. You know, the things I love. I'll be talking to some friends and you get to hear their interviews spread out over time. Because as you know, we keep these things short and sweet, but for those of you who want a little bit more in depth, and you're like, I'd rather listen to them all at one time, head over to our website, we'll post those there. Also, this season, in addition to the podcast, we'll also be doing a free webinar on Building Your Infrastructure and that'll be on June 30th at 10:00 AM Mountain. Hope you get to join us. And I'm super excited for what you get out of this season's episodes. Back to the episode.

Chyla Graham (00:01):

Hey, Amanda, thank you for joining us today on the Nonprofit Nuggets Podcast. For those of you who are joining in today, Amanda Wallander Roberts is the chief consultant, CEO, brain operator of Capacity Building Nonprofit, and I'm super excited to have her here.

Chyla Graham (00:22):

Amanda, why don't you tell a little bit about yourself?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (00:27):

Yeah, that's awesome. Thank you so much for having me on this podcast. I'm really excited to get to share some of my information and insights with the group.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (00:35):

A little bit about me. I am a social worker. So I started off working in nonprofits, really underfunded and understaffed. We didn't evaluate our programs. So some days I was working with youth aging out of the foster care system. Some days I was wondering, are we really even helping? I don't have any evidence to know for sure one way or another. So after that experience, seeing a lot of my colleagues just burn out straight out of school, I thought we really could be doing a better job in nonprofits of getting enough staff, enough funding, evaluation practices to really support the people who are providing these amazing services in the community, to really support us internally, not only to feel better as staff members, but also to do our jobs better. So that's why I got into consulting.

Chyla Graham (01:27):

No, that is great information because I think that's the part that most people don't really know is that so many of the consultants come from that background. We're like, "Oh, we've seen it."

Amanda Wallander Roberts (01:40):

And we know it can be done better. Yeah.

Chyla Graham (01:43):

Part of the branching out into consulting is I want to test this out to see if it's just in my head, and can I prove that this actually works? So can you tell us a little bit about what you do? So we got a little bit about you and that you're a social worker. We know that there are evaluations, but what exactly does Capacity Building Consulting do?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (02:08):

So we work with organization, just like our name says, to build capacity. So whether that's in fundraising or evaluation, those are our two primary areas, we really work with clients to coach them and really be in charge of their organization's fundraising and their organization's evaluation and learn how to do it themselves. So that's everything from the planning pieces to the implementation, to all of that reporting for grants, for individual donors, fundraising, for evaluation, logic models, those kinds of things, surveys, you name it.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (02:45):

But at the end of the day, our goal is making sure nonprofits are set up so that they don't have to rely on a consultant to help them with evaluation or fundraising, except for every so often, occasionally you might want to bring someone else in, but really, they're in charge of it, they know how to do it themselves.

Chyla Graham (03:04):

I love that idea. I'm very big on, "Can I give you this information so that you can rely on yourself?" That's one of the reasons I love talking to you and being like, "Hey, let's hear a little bit more." And is that surprising though, when you work with nonprofits? Are they surprised that you're like, "I'm going to step away from this at some point"?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (03:26):

Yes. They are often very surprised, especially when it comes to a thing like grant writing. They're like, "Oh, can we just get someone to do this for us? Let's just farm this out." And I'm like, "You know what? It's more efficient and effective, not just cost wise, but the return on your investment, if you learn how to do it in house. And then when you're starting to apply for huge major federal grants or really upping your grants game to hire someone on staff, because someone internally is going to know what's going on day to day, and is going to be able to better prepare an application that's accurate for your organization."

Amanda Wallander Roberts (04:03):

But they're like, "Wait, I thought you would just do it for us forever."

Amanda Wallander Roberts (04:05):

And I'm like, "Nope, if we're going to sign this contract together, there's an exit strategy where you know how to do it yourself."

Chyla Graham (04:12):

Yeah. I definitely come across that, where people were just like, "You aren't going to just..."

Chyla Graham (04:17):

And I'm like, "We're going to help you so that when this isn't an option, at some point, you want to build that capacity to say, 'We're going to hire someone.'"

Amanda Wallander Roberts (04:25):

Right. Internally.

Chyla Graham (04:26):

And then all of your knowledge lies with someone else, and it's like, great.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (04:32):

And it's so sad to see nonprofits paying so much money because that's just not a longterm strategy. It's not a longterm solution to pay someone externally to do these things that could be in house. So it makes sense for a little while, while you're learning how to do it, while you're figuring it out, but not for two, three years.

Chyla Graham (04:51):

So, right along that is how do organizations best maximize their time with you?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (05:01):

Well, recently I've been putting the information that I coach my one-on-one clients with into online trainings, because a lot of organizations can learn things on their own and just get some group coaching or smaller feedback sessions, especially organizations who can't afford to have that one-on-one time.

Chyla Graham (05:23):

Yeah.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (05:23):

And so really, my online programs are what I'm building out to be the most efficient and effective way to work with me. And that's really important to me because I think it's important that this kind of information is accessible. But also, I've noticed when organizations just take one online training after another, those one hour free workshops, it's like, good, you got some great tips and tricks. That's super helpful, but you don't have a strategy. Behind your fundraising, behind your evaluation, you don't have a strategy. So I would say working with me online.

Chyla Graham (06:00):

The way of the future.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (06:01):

Yes.

Chyla Graham (06:02):

You mentioned something there. They don't have a strategy behind their fundraising, behind their evaluation, so it made me think of strategic planning. And is that something that you help them with? Or what comes to mind for you when you hear, "We're doing a strategic plan"?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (06:21):

I'm like, "Yay, congratulations. Good for you. Two thumbs up. I will help you if that's something that you're needing." I'm a huge proponent of strategic planning. I've done several sessions with different organizations. So if that's the step back we need to take in order to prepare, because I don't want you fundraising if you don't even know where your organization is going, and I don't really want you evaluating if you have no idea what programs you're going to have. So I feel like that's absolutely a foundational piece. Strategic planning is super important and something that we also offer.

Chyla Graham (06:55):

Okay. I always think of, "Oh, we're doing a strategic plan." And I'm like, "How long?"

Amanda Wallander Roberts (07:04):

Yes.

Chyla Graham (07:04):

It becomes my question. I'm just like, "Are you thinking five years? Are you thinking three years?" So I've definitely seen organizations like, "This is our 20 year plan."

Chyla Graham (07:13):

And I'm like-

Amanda Wallander Roberts (07:13):

Whoa.

Chyla Graham (07:14):

... "Do you know how much can happen in 20 years?"

Amanda Wallander Roberts (07:16):

Oh my goodness. If people had planned a strategic plan 20 years ago, and today is 2020, my goodness, the world is just such a different place. No, I've never heard of 20 year. I have heard of three to five year. That's where I try and stay in that range.

Chyla Graham (07:33):

Yeah, I was just like, "I'm not really sure that this is the best use of your time."

Amanda Wallander Roberts (07:37):

Right. And the one year plan, I also think on the other end, it's like, "No, let's shoot a little bit further out. That's more of an action plan than a strategic plan if you're just focusing on one year."

Chyla Graham (07:48):

That is a good differentiator, an action plan versus a strategic plan. Got to keep that in mind. So what is one thing you want all nonprofits to know?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (08:05):

That is a really good question. I would say data, because if I can only choose one thing, it's data, but I want to apply that to everything.

Chyla Graham (08:16):

Okay.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (08:16):

If you are in your programs and you're thinking, Oh, we're doing such a good job, congratulations staff. Look how much you're impacting the community. And you don't have data, I'm like, I'm glad you feel like you're doing a good job. I would love some proof that you're doing a good job. Let's just back up your feelings with some actual data.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (08:36):

Or when it comes to fundraising, we're like, "We really think we should do a crowdfunding campaign." And it's like, okay, well, let's look at the data. How many social media followers do you have? What's your strategy behind that? And how is that based on data? And even for nonprofits that are just getting started, or people considering starting a nonprofit, I'm just like, "Does the community need this? Where is your data?" Because a lot of times, we think, Oh, this would be such a great program. And it's like, says who? Says you? Does the community also say that? Where's that community input data?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (09:09):

So that's one thing. I wish all nonprofits were much more data focused in every aspect of what they do.

Chyla Graham (09:18):

Yes and yes. And I say that because there comes a point where you're thinking, well, how do we grow and expand? And it's like you said, I think you feel like that was effective, but how do you write that on an application?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (09:37):

Right.

Chyla Graham (09:37):

How do you make the case for support if it's just, "We feel that people like us more." Do they?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (09:46):

"We feel like this program would be really good for the community." And that's where we say a lot of nonprofits fail.

Chyla Graham (09:51):

Yeah. Well, what tools would you recommend for an organization who's trying to figure out how do we track this data?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (10:01):

Well honestly, if you're just getting started on tracking things, really spreadsheets, I don't care if it's Google Sheets or Excel, keep it simple for yourself, and really make sure that you're only tracking the information you're actually going to use. So what we see a lot of times is we want to develop these surveys and ask all these questions and it's like, okay, if the response to the survey, you are not going to do anything with. Like this one question, if that's not going to change your decisions.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (10:31):

I worked with an organization and one of the things that they always got feedback on for their surveys was parking. Parking was a big issue with the people they were trying to serve. So they were going to ask this question specifically about parking. And I was like, "Oh, okay. So would you provide alternative parking?"

Amanda Wallander Roberts (10:53):

And they were like, "No."

Amanda Wallander Roberts (10:54):

And I was like, "Okay, then don't ask." Because then if they think you're going to make a decision off of that one question, then they're going to be expecting something out of it. Or when you don't do something, they're going to feel like their voice isn't heard. So only collect the data that you need. And that also goes for what you're putting in your own spreadsheets and tracking for your own fundraising purposes, just the data that you need. And you can use a spreadsheet.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (11:20):

Of course, I love fancier things like Airtable and all of that kind of stuff, but I encourage most nonprofits to keep it simple until they're ready for something more significant.

Chyla Graham (11:30):

Yeah. I definitely support that graduated approach, because one thing is, how much are you going to invest into this? And if you're not going to train someone on how to use it, this was not a worthwhile endeavor.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (11:49):

But we love the next new system, but I'm like, okay, let's get used to evaluating. Let's get used to capturing the data first. And then if we need something fancier, we can graduate, like you said.

Chyla Graham (12:01):

Yeah. Well, if an organization needed to think about staffing and priorities, where would you say in either the collection of data or the evaluation process, how should they prioritize what they do first?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (12:18):

Well, really, it should all go back to the logic model. So a logic model is a tool for a nonprofit organization that connects what we do with why we're doing it. What we're actually doing those activities to the outcomes we're anticipating. And based on that logic model, you can create an evaluation plan and really say, "Okay, for everything we think we're going to do, are we meeting those outcomes? Are we actually changing the communities in the way that we expected?" And then we can also evaluate are we implementing programs as planned?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (12:52):

So once you have those two pieces in place, that logic model and the evaluation plan, that evaluation plan will show you, here are the exact things you need to be tracking. And if you don't have enough staff to be tracking it, it's really about prioritizing, "Okay, this thing can wait until next year. We're not quite ready to track that." Or, "You know what? We really do need to hire a new part-time data entry person."

Amanda Wallander Roberts (13:18):

But a lot of the times, we just don't think of how we can be most efficient. So for example, if we're doing paper surveys because our client population is more likely to fill out a paper survey, that's great. If we're doing paper surveys because we've always done paper surveys, then why don't we do them on an iPad or something, or a text survey, and then that data is already entered for us? Looking at what makes sense for our organization staffing and also what makes sense for the population that we're serving, and finding those ways that we can be most efficient and effective.

Chyla Graham (13:54):

Efficiencies. It's so exciting. Great word. So we touched a little bit around priorities, which is one of the pillars here for CNRG is, "Hey, we want to think about your mission. We want to think about your priorities, your tools. But we also have your story." And can you tell us a little bit about how you help organizations tell their story?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (14:21):

Yeah. It's really interesting because people feel like evaluation and fundraising are so wildly different, people feel like data and that storytelling piece are completely different. But what I really love to do is show organizations, you really need both. You need the data showing here's the need in the community, and then the powerful story about how we are not only meeting that need, but we're doing so in way that's either evidence based or research informed, and we're also being effective.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (14:56):

So I feel like all of these pieces come together, each data point comes together to tell that organization story in a beautiful way. And of course I love weaving in any sort of personal anecdotes or feedback or clips from a thank you card that people have received to show both, it is so much about the data, but it's also about that personal touch as well.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (15:23):

So I really like to start with what the community needs, why they need it, that this program that we're doing is super effective and is built that way, that the community wants our program and then move into, "And here's how we know we're effective because of the outcomes we've seen. And here's the impact we've heard about from our clients." So building that case on data.

Chyla Graham (15:48):

It all comes back to data.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (15:51):

Yeah. And it's such a crucial part of your story too, because if you just focus on telling the stories from individual perspectives, then you are missing that bigger piece of how this works within the community, of how important these types of services are. And you're missing painting the picture of the real issue.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (16:17):

So if you don't have that picture of the real issue that your organization is working to address, it's going to be hard to convince people to care about your organization, because there's so many wonderful programs. There's so many great programs everywhere you turn, and it's like, okay, but which ones do we really need here?

Chyla Graham (16:38):

Yeah. That makes sense. And how do you then help organizations who need to do that switch of gears? They're used to that idea of, "This is what's happening in my heart. I can feel it." Or they just have those personal, "This person benefited from our program." How do you help them switch from that internal one to one, to a larger picture.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (17:07):

Typically, I start with a logic model. That is the tool I most often come back to because it really forces organizations to sit down and say, "Okay, but we do this one particular thing. Why? What is the outcome there?" And once you're able to align, here's what we're doing with what we're trying to accomplish, even if you don't have that data yet, you can use what you feel and your heart in that logic model. And then evaluate it to see if that's really the impact you're having, because a lot of us think we're having a certain impact, but we don't exactly know.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (17:43):

So when you sit down and you create that logic model, you're able to start saying, "Oh, what I'm feeling isn't necessarily untrue. This whole data perspective isn't contrary. It's just supplementary. These can work really well together. I don't have to be a completely different person. I don't have to change everything about myself in order to collect data."

Chyla Graham (18:08):

Yeah. That's good. That's good to know for me personally, because I feel like logic models come up a lot and I'm just like, should I do one for my business?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (18:18):

Yes. I have one for my business, I have one for my personal life. I have a logic model for everything. They are amazing.

Chyla Graham (18:25):

Okay. So that is a great transition to my behind-the-scenes section. So I want to know a little bit more about you as a business owner and how you are managing all the pieces, just because I feel like this is going to happen. This is going to be like the logical one. What's one piece of advice that has helped you grow or what's one tool that's helped you grow as a business owner and a leader?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (18:55):

I would say the biggest thing for me has been getting to know other consultants, especially when I first started out, doing some informational interviews and just being like, "Hey, here's what I'm thinking. What do you think? How'd you start your business." Especially in the Denver community and I'm sure beyond, but this is my experience, other consultants are just so like, "Oh, here, let me help you. And here's this lesson that I learned the hard way. Don't learn it yourself. Just know it."

Amanda Wallander Roberts (19:25):

I got so much great advice that I feel like it saved me years and years of toil as a consultant. So honestly, anytime someone's like, "I'm thinking of becoming a consultant." I'm like, "Great. Interview every consultant you can find that's kind of in your realm."

Chyla Graham (19:43):

Yeah. And I think because for most of us, we were just like, I had no idea what I was doing.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (19:50):

Right.

Chyla Graham (19:51):

Now, if there's anything that I can help you save time on, you can have it.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (19:56):

Exactly.

Chyla Graham (19:58):

I'm always just like, you're going to help someone else down the line, I don't need this to be like, "You want to buy me coffee? It's fine. I don't actually need the coffee, I'm good. But could you get this information?" So I love it.

Chyla Graham (20:15):

For me, I've noticed that being all things to all people internally and for my clients can definitely be overwhelming. So how have you helped reduce your own overwhelm, whether it be client management or just internal operations?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (20:40):

So I'm a people person in the sense of I just want to help. I just want to help wherever I can, however I can. And I don't want to stop helping until I know you're good. Sometimes though, I'm not the best person to help with your particular need, even though I've helped with other things. You know what I mean? And so really recognizing okay, where are my strengths? And focusing on those. And then after interviewing all those consultants, I know so many people and I can just send referrals. That's been so, so helpful because then I'm not stuck in situations where I'm having to do things that I'm not as good at and things that I'm not as passionate about. So for me, it's been mainly saying no to the projects that don't align with my strengths and skillsets and interests, and referring them out.

Chyla Graham (21:34):

That's for all consultants, I feel, as for nonprofit leaders to be like, "Actually, that does not fit into what we're doing-"

Amanda Wallander Roberts (21:44):

Right.

Chyla Graham (21:45):

"But we know so many great organizations. Would you like an email introduction?"

Amanda Wallander Roberts (21:50):

There you go. A warm introduction or, "I'll give you their website." Absolutely.

Chyla Graham (21:55):

"What would you like me to do?" And one other thing that for me, as I think of the CNGR, how does CNRG grow? I'm always thinking about making notes. So many notes.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (22:13):

I've got notebooks full of them too.

Chyla Graham (22:16):

I was like, so let's put this on the agenda to talk about in the fall for next year. And what about for you? How do you prepare for a new year, a new season? What are some like, "I've got to make sure this gets checked off before I can move forward"?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (22:33):

Well, it is ever changing and ever evolving over here. It used to be that I used to do a project report for myself after every project. I had the time. If I had any contractors that I paid to support the project, I had little notes of my lessons learned, and that was fabulous. I did that for at least a couple of years. And it was so interesting to go back through and be like, Oh yeah, I already learned this lesson. So now I've learned it a second time, so now I have to make sure I don't learn it the third time. I have to know at this time.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (23:05):

And I also could see, just by being really, really specific on my time tracking, where I was most efficient and effective and where I was lagging or letting things go on and on and on. That used to be how I did things, and I think it worked really well, but more recently, it's just been about, okay, where do I want to take this business next? And where does the business fit in my overall life? Because my whole life isn't my work. That's not what I'm all about. And I really did become a consultant to support nonprofits and support my life. So figuring out how those pieces make the most sense for the coming year, that's how I've been doing it more recently.

Chyla Graham (23:53):

Yeah. I love that. I'm like, this is not all I do.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (23:59):

Right. Exactly. And I have to make sure it's not all I do. And that can be tough sometimes.

Chyla Graham (24:04):

Yes. I'm introduced. I try to stick to my boundaries of... When do you work? I work Monday to Thursday.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (24:12):

There you go. I love that. I was taking Fridays off for a little while. That was so nice.

Chyla Graham (24:17):

Yeah.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (24:18):

I need to get back to that.

Chyla Graham (24:19):

Do it.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (24:19):

Yeah.

Chyla Graham (24:20):

I'm going to hold you to that.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (24:23):

Okay. Here we go.

Chyla Graham (24:25):

For those who have not seen, Amanda and I interact online, I feel like Amanda is my accountability partner on the internet.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (24:36):

Yeah. We chat that way.

Chyla Graham (24:37):

She's like, "Did you post the thing that you said you were going to do?"

Chyla Graham (24:40):

I'm like, "I'm sorry, I will do that and I will tag you. I promise it is going to go out." So I would like to recommend that anyone who is looking to push themselves a little further, find an accountability partner, and be like, "Hey, this is the thing that I need you to push me on," because I know I feel bad when I'm like, "Oh crap. I did mention this, huh?"

Chyla Graham (25:04):

Okay. And then I won't notice, and then I'm like, "Oh, Amanda posted." I was like, I posted on the internet.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (25:10):

There you go.

Chyla Graham (25:11):

Hi. It's official. Amanda has seen it. I can say that it was done.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (25:17):

Yeah. It's so helpful.

Chyla Graham (25:17):

Entirely helpful.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (25:17):

You're welcome.

Chyla Graham (25:25):

So two more questions before we wrap up.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (25:26):

Okay.

Chyla Graham (25:28):

So one is what's one podcast that you love and you feel like more people should listen to?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (25:36):

A podcast? That's really tough. I was listening to the podcast by Gretchen Rubin. I totally forget what it's called. She is the author of a couple of those books though. Do you know which one I'm talking about?

Chyla Graham (25:51):

I feel like I've heard her name. So I feel very... I'm going to use the Googles right now.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (25:57):

There you go. It's like...

Chyla Graham (25:58):

Gretchen Rubin.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (26:03):

Happy. I don't know.

Chyla Graham (26:08):

Okay. The Four Tendencies?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (26:11):

That's the book she wrote.

Chyla Graham (26:12):

Yes. I have taken that.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (26:14):

Oh, you have? Oh, I haven't

Chyla Graham (26:17):

Try it. We'll talk offline.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (26:19):

Okay. Wow. That'd be good. No, I listened to her podcast last year, but mostly I read. So I've been reading this book called... and I forget the author's name. I have it somewhere right by me. It's called Rest.

Chyla Graham (26:35):

Okay.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (26:37):

I'm halfway through it. It's so good. Let me just tell you, it's got all these chapters. One of the chapters is called Walks, and it's just about how much going on walks can actually improve your work when you're working. And they've got a chapter, the last chapter I read was on maps. It's basically just teaching you how to rest and relax. And I'm like, "Oh my goodness. I've never done this." And so I'm really, really soaking it up right now. It's a great book.

Chyla Graham (27:03):

Okay. So I have two books then to recommend to you.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (27:08):

Okay.

Chyla Graham (27:08):

Have you read Sleep Smarter?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (27:11):

No, I have not. I'll have to read that.

Chyla Graham (27:14):

Sleep Smarter, and there's another one that's called Sacred Rest, I think.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (27:19):

Okay.

Chyla Graham (27:19):

And so that one, they talk about the different types of rests. Like, "This is an emotional rest and this is a..."

Amanda Wallander Roberts (27:26):

Here we go.

Chyla Graham (27:30):

Yeah. I will send you those links.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (27:32):

Thank you. I'm really excited about those.

Chyla Graham (27:34):

All right. And then what is one thing that you're proud of?

Amanda Wallander Roberts (27:42):

One thing that I'm proud of? I will say I am really proud of putting myself out there. It was really nerve wracking at first to be on social media and do Facebook lives, and have these videos and just post my face everywhere. And I felt like, Oh my goodness, but I don't want anyone to look at me, I don't want anyone to see me, because I really do just want to be so behind the scenes with organizations. But I'm really proud that I pushed through those butterflies and all that nervousness to say, "No. Actually, if I'm not posting these videos and the people who need this information are not going to get it."

Chyla Graham (28:23):

Yeah.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (28:23):

So really shifting my mindset around, no, this isn't about looking at me because that's what I never wanted. This is about helping people. And it's a really hard mindset shift to make. And I'm still working on it for sure. But I'm proud that I've gotten this far.

Chyla Graham (28:39):

Constantly, I feel like all the time, some days are better. I'm like, "I'm doing great." And other days I'm like, "What? What are these things?" Because I follow myself, so I'm like, "What? What is this going up?"

Amanda Wallander Roberts (28:53):

Yeah. It's like, "Oh no, I don't want to see this."

Chyla Graham (28:57):

But it helps me remember did you post the thing? Yes, I saw it. But I'm also like, okay.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (29:04):

Yeah.

Chyla Graham (29:05):

So good job. Yay. It's been a pleasure talking with you. I'm super excited to reconnect again.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (29:13):

Yes. Me too. I always love our conversations. I feel like about actually helping clients do things themselves, we're on such a similar wavelength, and you hardly meet consultants like that, because financially that doesn't make sense. You want clients to keep coming back to you forever, and it's like, no, but realistically you want them to be able to do this on their own.

Chyla Graham (29:37):

Yeah. I'm like, but part of this is that growth and they'll never grow if they have to keep using me. That means that either I haven't fulfilled my duties of, "Hey, I want you to still want to talk to me, but we could hang out. How we need to do this. So what's the plan?"

Amanda Wallander Roberts (30:00):

Right. Not creating that dependency.

Chyla Graham (30:03):

Definitely. So have a good day.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (30:07):

Thank you.

Chyla Graham (30:07):

I'm going to talk to you later.

Amanda Wallander Roberts (30:10):

Sounds good

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